Comments on: At $347,000 Per Baptism Maybe It’s Time To Rethink Church http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church faith and the bible at work and business for leading and innovating in a global economy Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:16:08 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Bernard Moon http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-3959 Bernard Moon Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:21:40 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-3959 Michael, I think you're missing the point of the article and the comments that followed. This was an average calculated by the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, so it's a tool that allows anyone to analyze and think about what this means. Also I don't understand how you are referring to attendance. It's a per baptism figure. Thanks for your comment. Michael,

I think you’re missing the point of the article and the comments that followed. This was an average calculated by the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, so it’s a tool that allows anyone to analyze and think about what this means.

Also I don’t understand how you are referring to attendance. It’s a per baptism figure. Thanks for your comment.

]]> By: Michael Mahoney http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-3570 Michael Mahoney Thu, 14 May 2009 20:36:33 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-3570 I think you can't make a blanket statement like that, as all churches aren't alike. Apples and oranges. There are churches that pay their senior pastor more than my church's entire budget is. It would be an interesting exercise, though, to break these numbers down by demographic. To be fair, let's not go by attendance, but by annual budget. Put them in catagories: Less than $100k, 100k-250k, 250k-500k, 500k-1M, 1M+. How about a bug church like Northpoint (and I'm not picking on them, it's just an example, and their financials are on their website) with a 35M budget. (that boggles the mind, BTW) I'll bet you'll find that economies of scale work in reverse. If a 100k church baptizes just one person a month, then Northpoint would have to baptize 350 per month to be "as efficient." Now, it would be cool if they baptize 4200 people a year! I don't know if they do or not. I would imagine smaller churches are more fiscally efficient because they have to be. They have to "make do" with a sub-par sound system, no stage lights, a free website, volunteer staff and locking up the copy paper. They have to really look at what they can do, and look at what gives them the most "bang for the buck" so to speak. Does that make them better stewards? Whose to say? But a smaller church also spends a larger percentage of its budget on non-ministry items as well, probably. Equipment, utilities, insurance, etc... It's easy to just throw a number out there. I think you can’t make a blanket statement like that, as all churches aren’t alike. Apples and oranges. There are churches that pay their senior pastor more than my church’s entire budget is.

It would be an interesting exercise, though, to break these numbers down by demographic. To be fair, let’s not go by attendance, but by annual budget. Put them in catagories: Less than $100k, 100k-250k, 250k-500k, 500k-1M, 1M+. How about a bug church like Northpoint (and I’m not picking on them, it’s just an example, and their financials are on their website) with a 35M budget. (that boggles the mind, BTW)

I’ll bet you’ll find that economies of scale work in reverse. If a 100k church baptizes just one person a month, then Northpoint would have to baptize 350 per month to be "as efficient." Now, it would be cool if they baptize 4200 people a year! I don’t know if they do or not.

I would imagine smaller churches are more fiscally efficient because they have to be. They have to "make do" with a sub-par sound system, no stage lights, a free website, volunteer staff and locking up the copy paper. They have to really look at what they can do, and look at what gives them the most "bang for the buck" so to speak.

Does that make them better stewards? Whose to say? But a smaller church also spends a larger percentage of its budget on non-ministry items as well, probably. Equipment, utilities, insurance, etc…

It’s easy to just throw a number out there.

]]> By: What Does $347k Per Baptism Mean? « man.of.depravity http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-3563 What Does $347k Per Baptism Mean? « man.of.depravity Thu, 14 May 2009 12:25:12 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-3563 [...] $347k Per Baptism Mean? 2009 May 14 by Tyler I recently read an article that talked about the cost of each baptism (or Christian conversion) to be $347,000. I can’t make this stuff up. Basically it says that for all the money Christian organizations [...] [...] $347k Per Baptism Mean? 2009 May 14 by Tyler I recently read an article that talked about the cost of each baptism (or Christian conversion) to be $347,000. I can’t make this stuff up. Basically it says that for all the money Christian organizations [...]

]]> By: Four Dynamics Of Ministry Ethics http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-3042 Four Dynamics Of Ministry Ethics Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:36:49 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-3042 [...] published a rather inciteful article concerning the average cost of bringing believers into the Church. Now granted Bernard [...] [...] published a rather inciteful article concerning the average cost of bringing believers into the Church. Now granted Bernard [...]

]]> By: JRO'D http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-2937 JRO'D Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:27:23 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-2937 Interesting article. The Catholic Church has been 'baptizing' Christians for the last 2000 years for far less than $347,000/person. Our church in Santa Clara baptizes ~300+ per year with annual tithes of ~$192k - or ~$640/person. And I'm pretty sure Father Junipero Serra did it for far less money (though he gave his life) when he established San Diego, Los Angeles, San Luis Obispo, Carmel and San Francisco and the millions he brought into the Kingdom as a result. Interesting article. The Catholic Church has been ‘baptizing’ Christians for the last 2000 years for far less than $347,000/person. Our church in Santa Clara baptizes ~300+ per year with annual tithes of ~$192k – or ~$640/person. And I’m pretty sure Father Junipero Serra did it for far less money (though he gave his life) when he established San Diego, Los Angeles, San Luis Obispo, Carmel and San Francisco and the millions he brought into the Kingdom as a result.

]]> By: Leroy Grey http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-2934 Leroy Grey Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:40:33 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-2934 It IS time to rethink the church, something I've spent 36 years doing, ever since God called me to the task. The results? Check out our website and this chart, called Truth Bombs: http://truthbombs.3circles.net Also I have created a Wisdom Blog called Transform Yourself that challenges many preconceived notions among Christians: http://3circles.org/transform It's time we stop playing church and learn how to BE THE CHURCH! Leroy Grey It IS time to rethink the church, something I’ve spent 36 years doing, ever since God called me to the task. The results? Check out our website and this chart, called Truth Bombs: http://truthbombs.3circles.net

Also I have created a Wisdom Blog called Transform Yourself that challenges many preconceived notions among Christians: http://3circles.org/transform

It’s time we stop playing church and learn how to BE THE CHURCH!

Leroy Grey

]]> By: Bernard Moon http://insidework.net/resources/articles/at-347000-per-baptism-maybe-it%e2%80%99s-time-to-rethink-church/comment-page-1#comment-2877 Bernard Moon Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:25:43 +0000 http://insidework.net/?p=5003#comment-2877 My last comment was to Dave Best. To the other David, why is it distasteful when it's just a tool to help reveal waste? It seems you are too focused on the number and not the process. As stated before, is it not distasteful when some pastors fly around in private jets at their choice when those resources can be allocated elsewhere? When talk of church growth centers around bigger parking lots rather than people's biblical faith? More accountability from peers? What about just opening it up to the whole body? There is a difference between being non-judgmental and being complacent to evil or sin. Between respectful inaction and respectful action... "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke My last comment was to Dave Best. To the other David, why is it distasteful when it’s just a tool to help reveal waste? It seems you are too focused on the number and not the process. As stated before, is it not distasteful when some pastors fly around in private jets at their choice when those resources can be allocated elsewhere? When talk of church growth centers around bigger parking lots rather than people’s biblical faith?

More accountability from peers? What about just opening it up to the whole body?

There is a difference between being non-judgmental and being complacent to evil or sin. Between respectful inaction and respectful action…

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke

]]>