Bradley J. Moore, author of the Shrinking the Camel blog—and a regular contributor to InsideWork—interviews his Leadership Coach, Dr. Stephen Payne—also an InsideWork contributor—on business leadership and spirituality.

Bradley J. Moore:  OK, full disclosure Dr. Payne: I’ve been a client in your leadership coaching practice since December, 2007…so anything I say can and will be used against you…

Stephen Payne: That seems inevitable, Brad.

BJM: I think our readers should know that you speak with a very sophisticated British accent. So everything you say sounds very commanding and authoritative to us trashy Americans. This must come in very handy with your leadership coaching business. Bloody well, then. Tell us in 30 seconds where you’re from, and what brought you here to the US of A?

SP: British accent: yes. Sophisticated: no. I’m an engineer from the formerly mighty industrial city of Birmingham, UK. We’re called Brummies. I’m a rugby, squash, and cricket- playing Brummie with formal training as a soccer hooligan—including the beer bottles. I came to the US in 1979 with a British technology company where I rose through the ranks to become CEO. 15 years ago they fired me. That event literally brought me to my knees. When I blamed God and yelled at Him for not revealing my pathway, I heard a Brummie voice clearly in my head: “Don’t you think it would be a good idea to do something for someone else sometimes?” Wham. My life started moving from taking-all to giving-all. That simple principle is now the core of my entire life, including my leadership coaching business where I have fun serving executive smart-asses like you.

From ‘taking all to giving all.” What a great story. You’re doing a seminar at Princeton Seminary for business leaders to talk about their spiritual lives. One question: Are you out of your mind? People in business generally don’t have a clue about how their spiritual lives mix with their daily work. Who would come to such a thing?

You’re right, people do compartmentalize their work and spiritual lives. It’s a tragedy when you think of how much they’re missing. Let me explain something: Even a cynic like you would agree that we serve an almighty, omnipresent God, right?

Yeah, Sure. I definitely believe that.

A God with an amazing, infinite power of intelligence that permeates the livingness of all things for their greater good, right?

Absolutely.

So that means God is already in the workplace…

OK, hold up. God is already in the workplace… Like, sitting there, right in my office? I don’t think most of us in business think about that when we check in each morning. But when you put it that way, it’s hard to argue with.

The real issue is not, Is God in the workplace? The real issue is revealing God for the greatest good of all concerned. And this is not a zero-sum game. Where God is present, there’s an infinite supply for all of us.

Now you’re messing with our standard theories of economics. It may be true that there is an infinite supply of God, but it’s counter-intuitive to how most business people operate, which is based more on scarcity of demand, a finite market share—those limiting kinds of terms and phrases.

The question is just how to reveal God. Given the fact that we have all been conditioned to think the opposite, it’s not surprising that you and so many others are cynical. That doesn’t deter me. Being spiritual at work is about how you welcome and tap-in to God’s power for the benefit of yourself and your organization—moment by moment, day by day, among all the cut and thrust of the business world. That’s what the seminar at Princeton is all about: How business leaders like you can tap into Christ to transform organizations for the better. Just pick up any newspaper and you can see the enormous need.

That’s very true. But is this some kind of sneaky sales pitch for Dr. Payne’s All-Purpose Philosophy and Soothing Salve?

Absolutely not. If there’s one thing coaching you has taught me Brad, it’s that there is no single answer. We must each integrate our faith into our leadership journey in our own unique way, guided by God. All I can do is introduce you to some frameworks for thinking that have worked for others such as you.

It definitely gives me a better perspective in thinking through the work I do, why I do what I do, and the impact I am having. I think that’s what people in business don’t have, or have never been exposed to, is this idea of a sensible framework that can help us integrate our spiritual lives into our business and leadership lives. You’re right—God is there at our jobs anyway, and we’re there; so why not make the connection?

Exactly. Don’t be so laid back about it. Make the connection with an infinitely powerful loving force that is there to support you? You bet!

So this “God in the Workplace” concept isn’t just a cover for convincing me to proselytize at work, right?  I think that’s what a lot of people think of when they talk about mixing their spirituality and work. They think it means we need to go out and convert our fellow employees over to Team Jesus.

Definitely no proselytizing. Not that I don’t support Team Jesus, but nothing turns people off to the idea of tapping into the power of God in the workplace more than being told they are not on the right spiritual train, and that you have all the answers for them. The workplace is not a stomping ground for militant evangelism. It’s a community of unique people who are all made in the image of God, who are together working creatively to accomplish something that should enable the greatest good for us, our organizations, and for those who depend on our organizations—like customers.

That makes more sense to me—that God will be revealed through my work rather than through me forcing Jesus down everyone’s throat. Evangelism can be so fake and corny, especially when people are trying too hard…

No, this approach is more about revealing God’s Spirit for everyone, no matter their faith, creed, or country. God is perfectly capable of helping people find the good news in his presence among us.

Back to your frameworks-for-thinking idea: Can you give us an example of one of the tools that might help a manager tap into God’s Spirit at work?

Gladly. Take the point I just made about enabling the greatest good. I think it’s important that every person in the workplace should learn his or her spiritual enablers. These are the practical things that generate a greater sense of Holy Spirit connectedness as you go about your work. These things are unique to each individual. In my case there are some practical activities, like writing a report or making a speech, or some relationships with certain of my clients, that imbue my deeper spiritual state with a powerful sense of balance, or equilibrium. My Holy Spirit connectedness is so strong when I operate from that place that my entire work experience is far more productive. Like swimming downstream rather than struggling against the current. Does that make sense?

Sure, there are some things that make me feel more connected to God. My writing really does that for me. So does mentoring other guys, helping them navigate their careers at my company, or like when I’m investing in people to help them in their jobs. Also, when I am working the “big ideas” with the exec team. I really feel God’s Spirit working through me during those times. Plus it’s usually what I’m good at anyway.

Please notice that I didn’t refer to the things I do in church. Those things, like praying, taking communion, worshiping in a community, or singing praise songs, certainly improve my Holy Spirit connectedness in that context, but they either don’t work for me or are not available on the job… Whoops, that’s not entirely true—prayer works really well for me in my coaching work.

Well, yeah, you could play some worship tunes on your iPod and sing along and have a praise and worship experience at work.  Maybe not right at your desk, though. That wouldn’t be right…unless you were a really good singer.

Do you ever listen to yourself talk, Brad? I’m going to begin recording our conversations… The key thing is this: When I know what my unique spiritual enablers are, I can use them at work to stay connected and productive in the place everyone spends the lion’s share of their time. Why would God want people like us to be anywhere else? The trouble, of course, is that the workplace is just loaded with things that trigger the opposite of those spiritual enablers.

That’s why they call it “WORK,” right?

I don’t know what that means…

Neither do I. But you make a good point: There are not a lot of built-in mechanisms for spiritual nourishment at work. And sometimes the stress, the deadlines, the random crazy boss or difficult customer, the inept team members, can do exactly the opposite of revealing God’s spirit.

Yes, I think it’s equally important to identify the opposite of our spiritual enablers. What you just talked about are what I call the spiritual derailers. Those are the things that have a uniquely negative effect on a person. My derailers are people stealing my ideas—though I suppose they’re all God’s ideas really—and people trashing my efforts when I’m not around to defend myself.

Uh, yeah. I hate that. Why do people keep doing that? And I’m supposed to do what in that case?

Well, remember we agreed that God is already in the workplace, waiting to be revealed for the greatest good. By being aware of your spiritual derailers, you can more quickly look to God’s Spirit to help you change the course of things, rather than sinking into all those negative, destructive influences. Confronting one of your derailers may very well put you on another spirit-led path altogether, and then, who knows what God might do?

Yes, I’ve seen the difference when I don’t give in to the negativity and destructive thoughts. It’s not always easy, but in the end I know it’s right, and it does lead to more positive and productive results.

New topic: In the columns you write for InsideWork, I’ve noticed you use these cards which help people calibrate their spiritual state. That sounds kind of weird. And I mean that in the kindest possible sense of the word…

Spirituality in the workplace can be a broad and daunting topic. In my coaching I discovered that business leaders understand the concept of tapping-in to the power of God, but they lack effectiveness in translating that into leading their organization better because they can’t quite see how to move forward. The spiritual calibration cards help leaders reflect on their own inner state in any moment or on any topic. I think of each card as a signpost that helps me move forward in the God direction.

Once again, you’re using words that I am afraid will send many folks in business and management heading for the hills. When you say things like, “My cards help leaders  reflect on their inner state,” you’re giving us a lot of credit, that we’re not just a bunch of robotic, shallow, lug-heads driven only by the dollar. Do you expect people in business to actually be aware of their inner spiritual state? To know what that means?

Not in those words, maybe. But all successful leaders understand the power of developing a greater level of self-awareness. Last week in London I did a development session for a group of leaders where I started by saying that I call my spiritual state “My inner equilibrium.” I talked a little about the clear correlation between my equilibrium and my leadership performance. Then I asked them what they called their spiritual state. I was shocked at the ease with which they produced names: self-confidence, contentment, spirit, success-focus—see how they are all amazing qualities of the Holy Spirit. It ain’t what you call it, it’s what you bloody do with it.

So if I go to your Princeton seminar, will you be instructing us like a stuffy Princeton professor or what?

Careful what you say about Princeton professors, Brad. The truth is I’m just as much a practitioner of these ideas as anyone who attends. It’s a workshop with groups of business leaders sharing their approaches. One of the most important components of the workshop is the sense of community that will be formed as we each share our experiences of God’s Spirit in our own work situations. The participants will learn from each other as much as from my material.

That’s fantastic—I could use more friends… But what about after the workshop is over? Is it like church, where we all go back to work and forget the whole thing as soon as the crap hits the fan?

This is where working with businesspeople is great. They believe in accountability. This seminar has a rather surprising finish on this topic.

Which is… Don’t leave me hanging Doc.

What? You want me to reveal my secrets to the man who refers to me as “Monty Python with a Briefcase”?  Would you like to buy a dead parrot?

I called you that because you really do sound like the Python guys. I’ll have you know that I used to memorize those Monty Python skits when I was in high school. Listen to this (imitation of Michael Palin from Monty Python): “NNNNNNNOOOOOOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is: surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency….our three weapons are…”

Good grief… Are we about finished here?

It would seem that we are, yes. What’s the name of the seminar?

It’s called the Leadership and Spirituality Workshop.

And where is it?

Princeton; on May 31 – June 1.

And what’s it called?

I have to go now Brad.

(In a fake British accent) Brilliant! God save the Queen! Fish and Chips for all my mates!

Stephen Payne practices leadership strategy and executive coaching through Leadership Strategies in Princeton, N.J. He is the author of First Rule of Leadership: Achieve Far More by Leading Your Self BEFORE You Lead Others. Brad is an executive in a large corporation in the Northeast which shall remain nameless. He posts regularly on the challenges of business spiritually engaged at shrinkingthecamel.com.